NHL Off-Topic thread

[pietasterp]

Quote: Originally Posted by DrJones

You're projecting here. Just be honest and say these are the changes that YOU want to see made to make YOU happier as a fan. And hey, most of these changes would make me happier as well. But they have absolutely nothing to do with hockey's status as a mainstream/niche sport in the US. The NHL will NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now, regardless of how exciting or boring the games are. Barring the emergence of an American-born Gretzky/Jordan/Tiger level talent with top shelf charisma, it just ain't happening. And that's okay.

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of your assertion that hockey will "NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now". I think these things fluctuate, and they do take time. Tastes change, storylines change...I mean, did anyone honestly think they'd ever see a day where every EPL game was watchable on regular networks in the USA? I mean, you can tune into a random Bundesliga game on Fox Sports on a normal Saturday afternoon. 20 years ago people would have laughed at that notion. Now Gus Johnson is learning how to pronounce "Schweinsteiger".

I don't know what the trigger or tipping point would be for the NHL to change its status in the American sports landscape, but I have seen the popularity of entire leagues wax and wane even in the relatively short amount of time I've been paying attention to these types of things. Baseball being wholly eclipsed by the NFL, hockey reaching prominence during the Messier-led Ranger days and the Gretzky-led Kings days (remember the infamous SI cover "Why the NHL is hot and the NBA is not"?), NBA peaking during the Jordan days, etc. The list goes on. Things change, and I would never say hockey will never be more popular than it is now in the US. I just don't think the catalyst will be something forseeable. It almost certainly won't be a rule change or manufactured alteration to the game to increase goal-scoring (although that may not hurt), but who knows? These things are generally only identifiable in retrospect.

But I'm sure Canadians aren't worried about it one way or the other.

[Money99]

Good points by both of you gents.

Baseball, horse racing and boxing used to be the Big 3 of sports 50 years ago.

I never thought I'd see a day where MMA would be more popular than boxing - especially after watching the original UFC 1.

You never know if hockey will eventually usurp one of the big 3 today.
I do think it's very possible if an American came in and was the next Gretzky or Lemieux.
Golf was popular but went into a completely different stratosphere when Tiger Woods came on the scene.
And basketball was kind of wandering in the sports wilderness until Bird and Magic came around. It shot the moon once Jordan usurped them.

DrJones, I agree with a lot of your points. It may never happen simply because it's a foreign sport to so many in the populace.
They don't grow up with it.
But 20 years from now? Who knows?
Maybe if a US born player were to take the helm and be the Lebron of the NHL.
Still, I don't think the American publics imagination can be captured if said Superstar is recording 90 points a year.
We'd need to see him get 150+ for that to happen.
And we all know major changes would need to happen for that to take place.

[Speedy]

Quote: Originally Posted by DrJones

You're projecting here. Just be honest and say these are the changes that YOU want to see made to make YOU happier as a fan. And hey, most of these changes would make me happier as well. But they have absolutely nothing to do with hockey's status as a mainstream/niche sport in the US. The NHL will NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now, regardless of how exciting or boring the games are. Barring the emergence of an American-born Gretzky/Jordan/Tiger level talent with top shelf charisma, it just ain't happening. And that's okay.

You're always well thought out but I disagree, Doc.

Hockey is invariably a fun sport when it's high scoring because it's non-stop action. There are stars in the league but most that we haven't heard of...Sidney Crosby, Ovechin, Kane - I don't really recall anybody else that's a star beyond these three.

Back in the 90s, I remember Jagr, Yzerman, Federov, Joe Thornton, Hasek, Modano, Broduer, Chris Pronger, Lidstrom, Lindros. I live on tobacco road (huge college basketball country and Braves country with MLB) but I remember these stars even as a kid. I remember playing a franchise as the Red Wings or Penguins on NHL 2001 and just loving the Hurricanes when they went to the finals in 2002 and again in 2006.

I think marketing has been hockey's downfall, along with the lockouts that just derailed any momentum and curtailed any fans from gaining interest. NHL has the stars in the game but nobody in the USA or outside of Canada knows (or for that matter, care). Melrose should not be the face of the NHL.

I think the product simply needs to be adjusted to where it was in the 80s and 90s. Bring the offense back (points >100 and goal scores > 50) and put it in primetime. Shoot, get rid of Bettman.

[DrJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by Speedy

You're always well thought out but I disagree, Doc. Hockey is invariably a fun sport when it's high scoring because it's non-stop action. There are stars in the league but most that we haven't heard of...Sidney Crosby, Ovechin, Kane - I don't really recall anybody else that's a star beyond these three. Back in the 90s, I remember Jagr, Yzerman, Federov, Joe Thornton, Hasek, Modano, Broduer, Chris Pronger, Lidstrom, Lindros. I live on tobacco road (huge college basketball country and Braves country with MLB) but I remember these stars even as a kid. I remember playing a franchise as the Red Wings or Penguins on NHL 2001 and just loving the Hurricanes when they went to the finals in 2002 and again in 2006. I think marketing has been hockey's downfall, along with the lockouts that just derailed any momentum and curtailed any fans from gaining interest. NHL has the stars in the game but nobody in the USA or outside of Canada knows (or for that matter, care). Melrose should not be the face of the NHL. I think the product simply needs to be adjusted to where it was in the 80s and 90s. Bring the offense back (points >100 and goal scores > 50) and put it in primetime. Shoot, get rid of Bettman.

Hey, other than maybe Money, nobody rants more about missing entertaining, high-scoring hockey than me. I love goals. I hate the risk-averse GUTLESS COWARDS who pass as NHL coaches these days.

But people are talking about the NHL becoming popular in the US on a national scale and challenging the Big Three. That is simply not going to happen. The most memorable moment in American sports history was in hockey, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Hockey used to have lots of big stars and a ton of goals (I was there!), and it remained a niche sport in the US. Sun Belt teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Big market teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. The defending Stanley Cup champions in one of America's great cities have not only formed a mini-dynasty while playing entertaining offensive hockey, but they feature an American-born player who is leading the league in scoring and is on pace for 120 points. And hockey remains a niche sport in the US.

Hockey is a cold-weather sport that requires a ton of ice rinks to flourish. Hockey is a very expensive sport to play and raise your kid in. Hockey is a very dangerous sport to play at a high level. American teams have made up at least 2/3 of the league for the last 75 years, but Americans have never comprised more than 25% of the league's players and have yet to produce a true superstar.

I'm not preaching doom and gloom. The NHL is the fifth-richest sports league in the world. It has a bedrock in Canada and passionate fans in the US; it's not going anywhere. Its fortunes will moderately rise and fall over the decades. But all the marketing and ESPN and increased scoring in the world isn't going to put it on the NFL's or MLB's or NBA's level.

[Majingir]

So much for dealing Bernier...Now Sparks is out long term and still no timetable on Reimer.

So unless Leafs deal with Bernier involves getting someone like Ramo or Hiller back from Flames, they're unfortunately keeping him. At least this does improve the Leafs tanking. 1-15-3 in his last 19 games lol.

[Money99]

Quote: Originally Posted by Majingir

So much for dealing Bernier...Now Sparks is out long term and still no timetable on Reimer. So unless Leafs deal with Bernier involves getting someone like Ramo or Hiller back from Flames, they're unfortunately keeping him. At least this does improve the Leafs tanking. 1-15-3 in his last 19 games lol.

LOL, yup.
If you're not going to make the playoffs, you might as well get Austin Matthews.

[AdamJones113]

Quote: Originally Posted by DrJones

Hey, other than maybe Money, nobody rants more about missing entertaining, high-scoring hockey than me. I love goals. I hate the risk-averse GUTLESS COWARDS who pass as NHL coaches these days. But people are talking about the NHL becoming popular in the US on a national scale and challenging the Big Three. That is simply not going to happen. The most memorable moment in American sports history was in hockey, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Hockey used to have lots of big stars and a ton of goals (I was there!), and it remained a niche sport in the US. Sun Belt teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Big market teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. The defending Stanley Cup champions in one of America's great cities have not only formed a mini-dynasty while playing entertaining offensive hockey, but they feature an American-born player who is leading the league in scoring and is on pace for 120 points. And hockey remains a niche sport in the US. Hockey is a cold-weather sport that requires a ton of ice rinks to flourish. Hockey is a very expensive sport to play and raise your kid in. Hockey is a very dangerous sport to play at a high level. American teams have made up at least 2/3 of the league for the last 75 years, but Americans have never comprised more than 25% of the league's players and have yet to produce a true superstar. I'm not preaching doom and gloom. The NHL is the fifth-richest sports league in the world. It has a bedrock in Canada and passionate fans in the US; it's not going anywhere. Its fortunes will moderately rise and fall over the decades. But all the marketing and ESPN and increased scoring in the world isn't going to put it on the NFL's or MLB's or NBA's level.

Very well said as usual.

The second last paragraph is the key. It's a lot easier for kids to find a basketball and go to their local park to shoot some hoops. It's a lot easier, due to the structure of professional football, to go the Pop-Warner—HS football—CFB—NFL route. There are serious rewards for playing baseball extremely competitively at a young age—the LLWS. Those are all easier, safer, and cheaper options than buying gear and getting started young and finding a place to play hockey.

Another deterrent is the immediate-success angle (this goes for baseball too, somewhat). In the NFL and NBA, players who get drafted early on can star immediately, and can make serious $$ with their first professional stroke of the pen, signing a huge contract right away. For American-born hockey players, you go through the ranks of American hockey, all the way through college, and the you get drafted... and don't get to play for another 2-3 years, and don't get the big bucks for another 3-4 years after that.

Add all that to the safety risk, and bam, NHL is, as you put it, a "niche sport."

[Money99]

The NHL has the largest percentage of fans who've never played the sport.
So I'm not sure youth participation is the driving force behind keeping the NHL behind Golf for popularity.

We've all listed a number of reasons and I think it's basically all of the above:
- low scoring
- lack of youth participation
- lack of American equivalent of Lebron James.
- too many players with names they can't pronounce
- not on ESPN

My whole point about having offensive hockey is that while having more goals and offense might not necessarily make it an instant hit in the U.S., not having it will most definitely keep it out of the Top 3.