pnr play type

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

That is executed in game by the early offense system and not set plays. The behind the scenes function of pick and roll option is what allows the AI to let the end result of a pick and roll also be influenced by tendencies. That is what I meant earlier by a tool is built for the AI being made available to the user as simply another play calling option. We are essentially talking about the difference between a complete real world scenario with calculating humans and a video game scenario where the ability to make those complex calculations may not yet be available in the code. Each year as the AI built out to allow for more complex basketball calculations the data that drives those will continue to move closer to real life scenarios but it is just not there yet. Alas the difference, today, between real life variability and the simulated variability.

The early offense system is still a play though Czar its not freelance and it gets aggravating not seeing freelance pick n rolls especially taking into consideration how much pick n rolls are ran ONLY one possession alot of times.

When a play breaks or a offense is stagnate we all know most times the pick n roll is the last resort to try and make something happen, so in my opinion it should not even be an early offense like it is in the game b/c every time that early offense pick play is called its the exact same one or two plays EVERYTIME and it gets repetitive, its starting to look sloppy to me.

At the same time these plays dont even have the primary ball handler that likes to run the pick n roll most of the time like I said earlier what the hell is Danny Green doing being the pick n roll ball handler or any other player doing being the pick n roll ball handler more often than Tony Parker and Manu? There are stretches way to often where tony might not run a pick n roll for 5 mins and then he runs ONE LOL and these dudes just want to iso when a play breaks but I have yet to see a pick n roll in that situation when a play breaks.

they took away the pick n roll tendency for the ball handlers and now its like its just for big men.

If you ask me I think the PLAYS OVER POWER THE TENDENCIES to the point that they dont even really matter enough to be relevant until they work right.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by DatGD12guage

The early offense system is still a play though Czar its not freelance and it gets aggravating not seeing freelance pick n rolls especially taking into consideration how much pick n rolls are ran ONLY one possession alot of times. When a play breaks or a offense is stagnate we all know most times the pick n roll is the last resort to try and make something happen, so in my opinion it should not even be an early offense like it is in the game b/c every time that early offense pick play is called its the exact same one or two plays EVERYTIME and it gets repetitive, its starting to look sloppy to me. At the same time these plays dont even have the primary ball handler that likes to run the pick n roll most of the time like I said earlier what the hell is Danny Green doing being the pick n roll ball handler or any other player doing being the pick n roll ball handler more often than Tony Parker and Manu? There are stretches way to often where tony might not run a pick n roll for 5 mins and then he runs ONE LOL and these dudes just want to iso when a play breaks but I have yet to see a pick n roll in that situation when a play breaks. they took away the pick n roll tendency for the ball handlers and now its like its just for big men. If you ask me I think the PLAYS OVER POWER THE TENDENCIES to the point that they dont even really matter enough to be relevant until they work right.

Can you explain to me what you want out of a "freelance" pick and roll or how you are defining that so I can understand what your saying because a ball screen is a ball screen command regardless of what system it is ran in IF I am understanding you correctly.

Early offense is supposed to be repetitive in the sense that every time your team is in a certain config in transition the user can anticipate the action that is about to happen. If it was always randomized there would be no way for you to run it without playart on and some people hate play art.

Teams don't "freelance" their early offense. The run the set's they practiced in those situations.

What I think I hear you saying is you want more movement in the half court offense when a play is not called or it breaks.

To get that now set your offense to freelance and 3-2. Then they will automatically run actions for your team. If you combine that with POE you can have the "freelance" actions for specific members on your team. If you combine the POE's you can even do things like run offense through tony parker and select pick and roll. You combine that with the 3-2 set in freelance and they will continually put him in positions to run pick and rolls.

If your POE is set to auto the AI is constantly making adjustments and that is what is overriding the tendencies. POE makes changes to tendencies and play-types to get the desired effect asked for. Turn all that to manual and set things up like I have mentioned and the 3-2 freelance will conform to whatever you feed it with the POE. Pnr's Postup's, offscreens, It morphs according to your POE.

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Can you explain to me what you want out of a "freelance" pick and roll or how you are defining that so I can understand what your saying because a ball screen is a ball screen command regardless of what system it is ran in IF I am understanding you correctly. Early offense is supposed to be repetitive in the sense that every time your team is in a certain config in transition the user can anticipate the action that is about to happen. If it was always randomized there would be no way for you to run it without playart on and some people hate play art. Teams don't "freelance" their early offense. The run the set's they practiced in those situations. What I think I hear you saying is you want more movement in the half court offense when a play is not called or it breaks. To get that now set your offense to freelance and 3-2. Then they will automatically run actions for your team. If you combine that with POE you can have the "freelance" actions for specific members on your team. If you combine the POE's you can even do things like run offense through tony parker and select pick and roll. You combine that with the 3-2 set in freelance and they will continually put him in positions to run pick and rolls. If your POE is set to auto the AI is constantly making adjustments and that is what is overriding the tendencies. POE makes changes to tendencies and play-types to get the desired effect asked for. Turn all that to manual and set things up like I have mentioned and the 3-2 freelance will conform to whatever you feed it with the POE. Pnr's Postup's, offscreens, It morphs according to your POE.

Im talking more in terms of playing the cpu and how they operate but even when your playing when you think early offense team chemistry plays in to where you know where your shooters are going to be. Being that it looks as if they have scrapped the spot up and hot spot tendencies plays over power everything EVERY TEAM has the same exact plays that they run, b/c POE's has to do MOSTLY with plays(in terms of offense) b/c if you choose "shoot at will" for instance you would think freelance comes into play BUT it doesnt b/c all they will do is run fast running offensive PLAYS that have nothing to do with where a ray allen likes to spot up UNLESS the SG's position in the PLAY happens to be that spot.

YET What if Ray Allen is running at SF.......thats what I mean when I say freelance has nothing to do with anything b/c the plays over power everything, there's not much of a level of unpredictability b/c instead of doing what Ray Allen does Ray has to do what the play wants him to do.

To try and sum it up if freelance plays a part in PLAYCALLING then WHY when a play breaks does EVERYBODY just stand still?

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Early offense is supposed to be repetitive in the sense that every time your team is in a certain config in transition the user can anticipate the action that is about to happen. If it was always randomized there would be no way for you to run it without playart on and some people hate play art. Teams don't "freelance" their early offense. The run the set's they practiced in those situations.

Actually I think teams Freelance the most in setting up early offense/transition b/c we seen how much freedom players have in that type of system. What im saying is that Everybody has the SAME SETS in 2k (especially when you choose and early offense set) and the players are positioned based on what the PLAY CALLS for them to BE according to POSITION not where they TEND to spot up or where they would like to cut.

Im trying to make myself clear like, some plays call for the SG to be the primary ball handler in a pick n roll situation but we all know that MANU is that guy BUT danny green's play type may be 3pt and PICK n ROLL for instance and even though we all know that Danny Green does not run pick n roll that often b/c he has that in his play type he's basically play the role of MANU b/c the play is ran for the SG PERIOD so who ever is at that postion has that play type PERIOD is going to be put in situations that they dont tend to do in real life, so then you have a Danny Green bringing the ball up court more then Tony playing another mans role b/c their may not be enough tendencies or maybe they just need to assign plays to a SPECIFIC player instead of position to make sure everybody is playing their role.

However sigh, in that early offense it just seems like whoever has the ball whether they like to pick n roll or not they are thrown in that situation in transition though. Do you see what i mean Czar..........LOL

[hikwelity]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Teams don't "freelance" their early offense. The run the set's they practiced in those situations.

If it comes off of a missed shot and a defensive rebound, it will be freelance almost 100% of the time. Different teams have different philosophies on what the bigs do, in the sense that some like the first big to rim run every single time, and other teams give him the freedom to set a drag screen, but your early offense is either going to be a drag screen by the first big, a drag screen by the trail big, or a double drag.

Some teams also incorporate freelance pistol action, too. D'Antoni was a huge proponent of this, and his teams ran it 20-30 times a game. The Clippers with Doc are the biggest users of this currently.

[silverskier]

if they don't fix the back-end stuff in order to save the playbooks it will be another bad year to play with the plays you really want. I miss the good old days...

As I explained in the first page, "mini-games" in the playbook plays are the real key to resolve this problem. I think that letting the AI make the decision could be a great addition, but giving the control to the user is the real deal. In pnr, in off screens, and in the other plays in the playbooks, just give to the user the control to decide if the player is going to the hoop or not, if it cuts or goes to the corner, etc.
I like this:

Quote: Originally Posted by Vni

Just to answer to this, what do you think about this control scheme Czar? RB (R1) is the screen button. You press it once and the screener comes and set a screen. If you don't do anything the screen stays there and you can use it multiple times if you want to. Then you can: _ Hold the screen button for a second (Or maybe tap it twice quickly) and he will fade. _ Just press the screen button and it will roll. You can easily run p'n'r, p'n'f, p'n's while reading and reacting. And only one bumper is needed.

but not only for pnr. Gving to the user the control in the execution of the plays would be one of the greatest additions ever

And for example, you could select a "root" of a play. Then, depending in your decision in each step of the play, it will be executed one way or another. It would be nice to make choices like in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtU8bxH-bHQ (from 0:40 to 1:38, for example, with different variations of the same play. All of which could be choosen by minigames with the same "root" play)

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by silverskier

if they don't fix the back-end stuff in order to save the playbooks it will be another bad year to play with the plays you really want. I miss the good old days... As I explained in the first page, "mini-games" in the playbook plays are the real key to resolve this problem. I think that letting the AI make the decision could be a great addition, but giving the control to the user is the real deal. In pnr, in off screens, and in the other plays in the playbooks, just give to the user the control to decide if the player is going to the hoop or not, if it cuts or goes to the corner, etc. I like this: but not only for pnr. Gving to the user the control in the execution of the plays would be one of the greatest additions ever And for example, you could select a "root" of a play. Then, depending in your decision in each step of the play, it will be executed one way or another. It would be nice to make choices like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtU8bxH-bHQ (from 0:40 to 1:38, for example, with different variations of the same play. All of which could be choosen by minigames with the same "root" play)

This is already in the game dude but they just dont give enough branch options and the plays break on top of that.

HOPEFULLY they make sure everything works properly from now on before they even think about adding something else b/c its just going to dig a deeper hole thats going to get even more complicated.

Yes it would be great if we could create plays but then again it would be nice to know that the play is not going to break b/c they didnt spend time working out the kinks.

[silverskier]

Quote: Originally Posted by DatGD12guage

This is already in the game dude but they just dont give enough branch options and the plays break on top of that. HOPEFULLY they make sure everything works properly from now on before they even think about adding something else b/c its just going to dig a deeper hole thats going to get even more complicated. Yes it would be great if we could create plays but then again it would be nice to know that the play is not going to break b/c they didnt spend time working out the kinks.

There are branches of a play, but they occupy a lot of space in the playbook. There is also a play where if you don't pass the ball to a player, it becomes another play. But what I'm saying is to put in the playbook a root play, and then, in its execution, depending if you press, for example, R1 or R2, the player goes up or under in a off screen. Or maybe, in the beginning of the execution of a step of the play, they give you 4 options in order to choose what is this next step

This could give the user the control to decide which variation of the play would be executed with a single root ( for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCdP3KPC70, for Tony Parker at the beginning od the video). All this could be applied to the pnr-pnp plays, of course.