pnr play type

[hikwelity]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_Poopador

I disagree. Basketball plays are dynamic. If the play is designed for the big to fade, but the paint is wide open and his defender overplayed the ball-handler, why would he not roll for an easy bucket? Maybe it shouldn't be tied to tendencies, but more to awareness ratings.

Because the spacing of the play is determined by what the screener is going to do. If the play is designed for pick and pop, the paint isn't going to be open because the other big is going to duck in for a post up when his defender rotates to help. If it is a designed spread pick and roll, the screener has to roll, or else there is no pressure on the defense to bump the roll, which would free up shooters.

While you are right that basketball is dynamic, NBA pick and rolls are systematic. Defending the pick and roll is taught in a number of different ways, but running the pick and roll offensively is not. When it is a called play, the screener will do what the play calls for. When it is a random pick and roll, the screener will play to his tendency every time, but never have the option to do both, otherwise the second big is clueless as to where he should be on the floor.

[El_Poopador]

Quote: Originally Posted by hikwelity

Because the spacing of the play is determined by what the screener is going to do. If the play is designed for pick and pop, the paint isn't going to be open because the other big is going to duck in for a post up when his defender rotates to help. If it is a designed spread pick and roll, the screener has to roll, or else there is no pressure on the defense to bump the roll, which would free up shooters. While you are right that basketball is dynamic, NBA pick and rolls are systematic. Defending the pick and roll is taught in a number of different ways, but running the pick and roll offensively is not. When it is a called play, the screener will do what the play calls for. When it is a random pick and roll, the screener will play to his tendency every time, but never have the option to do both, otherwise the second big is clueless as to where he should be on the floor.

I see your point, and for the most part, that's how it should happen. But defensive lapses do happen. If it does, smart players should be able to see and take advantage of it. If done correctly, it could add a lot of depth to play-calling. But that's a big if. In my opinion, the AI has been arguably the weakest aspect of the game.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by hikwelity

This is way too convoluted, and not to sound too reactionary or extreme, but the whole roll/fade thing with big men should be eliminated from plays. Rolling and fading should be hard-coded into plays, while roll/fade tendencies only play a factor in unscripted drag screens and play-the-game type of actions. And even then, that can be controlled by the user with the current call for screen button, so the roll/fade tendencies could be altogether eliminated. To illustrate my point, consider that when an NBA team calls a high screen play, it is very specific on the actions. Fist Down 5 is a high 1-5 pick, and the 5 man is always going to roll. Fist Down 4 is a high 1-4 pick, and the 4 man is always going to roll, even if he is a stretch 4, because the call was Fist Down. If it was Fist Up 4, then the 4 will pop, and the 5 knows that he is going to duck-in, rather than replace to the top. Even if Spencer Hawes is in the game, he is going to roll on Fist Down 5, and will only pop if Fist Up 5 is called. In other words, if a pick play was called and the big always had the option to roll or pop, whatever his preference was or whatever his strength was, it would entirely mess up the spacing on the play, because none of his teammates would know what he is going to do. If a play is called in the game, it should be very specific, regardless of the personnel.

Hmm. Not sure if you read the whole thread or not but what you described is exactly how the system works. That portion was not in question if I am understanding you correctly.

The example you quoted was my warning that if you pick a fade play even with 2 guys who should only roll... they will in fact fade. It is one of the issues I see with keeping fade plays showing up in pg pick and roll play-types.

To counter your point however. There are set's where the roll or fade is not predetermined. Those are fist plays and those are also represented in the game as pick and roll option plays. When you select those plays the AI has the ability to space based on whatever decision the roll/fade man makes.

So you have pick and roll plays, pick and fade plays, and pick and roll option plays.

The only question here was should all three of those options show up when your PG selects a pick and roll play and so far the consensus appears to be yes, even at the expense of extra scrolling. I am still concerned with novice users who will pick a fade play unknowingly and then report the game broken because birdman keeps fading to the 3 point line

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_Poopador

I see your point, and for the most part, that's how it should happen. But defensive lapses do happen. If it does, smart players should be able to see and take advantage of it. If done correctly, it could add a lot of depth to play-calling. But that's a big if. In my opinion, the AI has been arguably the weakest aspect of the game.

As AI continues to evolve I can see this becoming an issue for some gamers. Control vs Intelligence. What if you as a user don't agree with the decisions the AI makes even if it is the right one technically ?

[El_Poopador]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

As AI continues to evolve I can see this becoming an issue for some gamers. Control vs Intelligence. What if you as a user don't agree with the decisions the AI makes even if it is the right one technically ?

Good question. I think this is one area where I am definitely in in the minority. I would love for the AI to make its own decisions, provided they are intelligent ones.

For example, with the current manual pick and roll control scheme, you press a button to call for a screen, and based on hold long you hold the button, decide what the roll man is going to do. I have two issues with this implementation: first, you have to decide what the screener will do before the screen is set, with no chance to read the defense. If you hold the button and call a fade, but then the defense hedges hard before the screen is set, you can't change your decision to slip the screen.

Second, I believe you should only be able to control one person at a time in the game, and make "suggestions" as to what you want your teammates to do, such as calling for a screen. What I personally would rather see is the ability to call for a screen, but then have the screener make an intelligent decision on what to do (slip, roll, fade, set a second screen, etc.) after the screen is called for. I know that would be a huge undertaking in the AI department, but the payoff, in my mind, would be well worth it.

[hikwelity]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Hmm. Not sure if you read the whole thread or not but what you described is exactly how the system works. That portion was not in question if I am understanding you correctly. The example you quoted was my warning that if you pick a fade play even with 2 guys who should only roll... they will in fact fade. It is one of the issues I see with keeping fade plays showing up in pg pick and roll play-types. To counter your point however. There are set's where the roll or fade is not predetermined. Those are fist plays and those are also represented in the game as pick and roll option plays. When you select those plays the AI has the ability to space based on whatever decision the roll/fade man makes. So you have pick and roll plays, pick and fade plays, and pick and roll option plays. The only question here was should all three of those options show up when your PG selects a pick and roll play and so far the consensus appears to be yes, even at the expense of extra scrolling. I am still concerned with novice users who will pick a fade play unknowingly and then report the game broken because birdman keeps fading to the 3 point line

Well, to answer your original question, I think all ballscreen plays should be available to call for the PG. Even if it is a pick and fade play designed for a stretch 4, the PG attacking is always the first option after any ballscreen.

My issue is the pick and roll option plays. There literally isn't such a thing in the NBA. When your big sets the screen, he and everyone else on offense should know by the play call whether he is rolling or fading. If he is fading, there is some leeway on how he fades (to 3pt or shorter), but if he is rolling he has to roll hard, there can't be any delay. Therefore, the only reads for bigs are to slip the screen against an early show, or to rescreen if the guard's defender goes underneath the screen.

As far as users getting confused, it's easily understandable how that can happen with so many plays. I went through and did real playbooks for every team last year and there were dozens of plays that were exactly the same but had different names and were listed under different set types. The playbooks should be trimmed to eliminate redundancy, and a universal terminology should be settled upon. There is no right or wrong terminology, it just has to be consistent.

I also went off on a little tangent, not 100% related to the original question, about roll/fade tendencies for bigs. It should be 100% one or the other, there is no in between or mix.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by hikwelity

Well, to answer your original question, I think all ballscreen plays should be available to call for the PG. Even if it is a pick and fade play designed for a stretch 4, the PG attacking is always the first option after any ballscreen. My issue is the pick and roll option plays. There literally isn't such a thing in the NBA. When your big sets the screen, he and everyone else on offense should know by the play call whether he is rolling or fading. If he is fading, there is some leeway on how he fades (to 3pt or shorter), but if he is rolling he has to roll hard, there can't be any delay. Therefore, the only reads for bigs are to slip the screen against an early show, or to rescreen if the guard's defender goes underneath the screen. As far as users getting confused, it's easily understandable how that can happen with so many plays. I went through and did real playbooks for every team last year and there were dozens of plays that were exactly the same but had different names and were listed under different set types. The playbooks should be trimmed to eliminate redundancy, and a universal terminology should be settled upon. There is no right or wrong terminology, it just has to be consistent. I also went off on a little tangent, not 100% related to the original question, about roll/fade tendencies for bigs. It should be 100% one or the other, there is no in between or mix.

I disagree here. While there are obvious calls for down or up as you state there are also situations like with nash/amare where they are reading the defense to make a decision. That is what the roll or fade attempts to simulate.

It adds a stroke are variability so that when your playing vs the AI and you recognize the set you may not immediately know what the AI may do as it will depend on how you play defensively.

I understand your point from a user coach point of view but it's not as if a guy setting the screen has never adjusted to the defensive position.

In a video game sometimes you reveal to the user options that truly only exist for the AI. But most users are always asking for more choice and not less.

When you do not present these options you get guys making videos showing how "dumb" the AI is because he rolls every single time regardless of the defense.

Also consider offenses like the triangle and the flow offense that have actions and players have to watch their teammates and the flow of the ball to know what to do next.

If you only want to call the roll or the fade you have that option. But if you want the AI to have some variability or play to his tendencies IMO tools like these are necessary. IMO of course.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_Poopador

Good question. I think this is one area where I am definitely in in the minority. I would love for the AI to make its own decisions, provided they are intelligent ones. For example, with the current manual pick and roll control scheme, you press a button to call for a screen, and based on hold long you hold the button, decide what the roll man is going to do. I have two issues with this implementation: first, you have to decide what the screener will do before the screen is set, with no chance to read the defense. If you hold the button and call a fade, but then the defense hedges hard before the screen is set, you can't change your decision to slip the screen. Second, I believe you should only be able to control one person at a time in the game, and make "suggestions" as to what you want your teammates to do, such as calling for a screen. What I personally would rather see is the ability to call for a screen, but then have the screener make an intelligent decision on what to do (slip, roll, fade, set a second screen, etc.) after the screen is called for. I know that would be a huge undertaking in the AI department, but the payoff, in my mind, would be well worth it.

With you 100% on this one. the other game has a superior design in regards to this portion of the pnr game. You shouldn't have to determine pre screen what should happen.