The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 2022.

[kennylc321]

See this is my thing.

Like all of you, I am ready to see another football game. I don't subscribe to the "I hate EA; EA has ruined my life" mantra that many of you do. For me, it is simpler... I prefer options. Had 2k won the exclusive license 15 years ago, I have no doubt we would all hate 2k. Back when there were two games, when I got bored with one, I played the other.

Anyway, many of you, in your excitment to have another game, are overlooking the "sim" aspect. I highly suspect that this game is going to be like Head Coach... you will have your real teams and players and all of that but you're not actually playing the game...

Is that going to be good enough for you?

[ijumpedthegun]

Quote: Originally Posted by kennylc321

See this is my thing. Like all of you, I am ready to see another football game. I don't subscribe to the "I hate EA; EA has ruined my life" mantra that many of you do. For me, it is simpler... I prefer options. Had 2k won the exclusive license 15 years ago, I have no doubt we would all hate 2k. Back when there were two games, when I got bored with one, I played the other. Anyway, many of you, in your excitment to have another game, are overlooking the "sim" aspect. I highly suspect that this game is going to be like Head Coach... you will have your real teams and players and all of that but you're not actually playing the game... Is that going to be good enough for you?

Is it going to be good enough for me? That's my dream.

[ijumpedthegun]

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you. There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs. So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

You'll have to explain to me one more time but... why are you so personally offended that other people like doing different things in video games than you?

[JayhawkerStL]

Quote: Originally Posted by ijumpedthegun

You'll have to explain to me one more time but... why are you so personally offended that other people like doing different things in video games than you?

I don’t mind doing people doing different things. But I draw the line at requiring people to provide those other things if they view it as either not profitable, or just not in line with what they want to create.

You all act like EA is unaware of all this stuff, but I know you know better. If you complain about an aspect of a sports game for three years in a row, you just don’t get that they don’t care. And all EA wants to do is make money.

If they needed the demographic here to buy the game, they would do things differently. They don’t need us to buy the game. They would like to manage us, though, to keep us from crapping on the game publicly in an effort to force them to change their priorities.

But that is an immature way to deal with something like that. You can see that they only want to make money, and they don’t want to cater to this demographic. Regardless of truth, they believe you are asking them to make the game you want for less profit than they will make by making the game they want.

That’s your right to ask. But it’s a really jerk thing to do to anyone. And you aren’t just doing it to EA, you are also doing it to all the gamers that would have bought the game, but won’t if you get your way.

Maybe you believe in the undeniable truth that that your vision is more profitable. But, since EA is the one with skin in the game, THAT’S what you have to prove to them. And they are a million more times more committed to the true answer. They spend a ton of money on focus groups and researching telemetry data.

[The EVHL]

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like. But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with. Now you hate on EA because they don’t make a game like 2K, whose game didn’t sell well enough to exist. The logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it. But because you are a hockey fan, you are entitled to a sports game designed to your preference, even if it is not profitable to the people actually investing in the game. You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed? The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two. People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made. I like NHL 20 because Chel and Threes are a ton of fun, and play now is pretty great. But I’m “just a casual” so why should my opinion count, right. I should be embarrassed, right? Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough. Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody? Me, if they made their game like 2K hockey, I would do the same thing I did with The Show and NBA 2K, move on and play something more fun. If 2K football is is more fun than Madden, I’ll switch in a second. I rarely play more than one sports game at a time. I definitely preferred 2K football and baseball to the more popular games for those sports. I didn’t take to Madden for a decade after 2K got screwed. I kinda liked Madden 10, but pretty much hated every other release. But Madden 15 was the first game that was more fun than 2K5 or 2K8 for me. How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you. And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you. There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs. So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

Bolded what I'll reply to. Boy was that an exhausting list of assumptions and generalizations I had to read though, but that was to be expected...

1st: Never hated on EA because it's not 2k, I've hated on EA for their unique product not being up to par. Having stated that I've always bought both, I clearly have found pros and cons in both games for many years. EA was always my online game, but when you have net-code issues over the span of two consecutive years where your online performance was greatly impacted on the competitive scene due to it, then yes, I'm going to give them negative feedback. And again, I'm going to give them negative feedback for deceiving the community about omitting EASHL from a game and not making that information available till mere weeks before release.

2nd: I've bought almost every NHL game imaginable. I've made long posts about how NHL Hitz Pro is arguably the greatest hockey game ever made. I'm not "entitled" to a game of my preference, but since my preference starts and ends at "decent representation of the sport" I tend to always have a game to play. I will continue to provide feedback and stand-up for people who continue to provide constructive feedback, and I will always encourage everyone to list their pros and cons to sports games, as the more feedback the better. I will never be bullied by people like you into not speaking my mind, not asking for improvements, and not engaging with people who also have opinions on what would make the game better. Just because I'm not in-love with NHL like you, doesn't mean I should be slandered, bullied, and shouted-down on a forum designed to discuss sports video games.

3rd: Here's your unverified "fact" you like to bring up about the "sim" community whenever they call you out for trying to bully people into being quiet. I've never claimed to get zero enjoyment out of this game, but I sure do run into a lot of immersion-breaking scenarios that have existed for years. I will continue to provide feedback on those scenarios, and will continue to get enjoyment out of this game as well. These aren't mutually exclusive. I will also continue to discuss with other forums members who notice these lingering issues and discuss how awesome it would be if they were ever fixed. Like anyone who is passionate about something, there will be some harsh criticism when the same problems are never addressed. Providing harsh criticism does not equal hate, nor does it disqualify me from still finding the game worthy of a purchase. I also find it rich that the "sim" community is the only one with an agenda. So, you like the modes built for you in the game, everyone else doesn't get to provide any feedback on the modes built for them? Are offline gamemodes not built for everyone? I mean, they give 4 different presets ranging from "Arcade" to "Full-Sim" so it looks like offline game modes are built for me, you, and everyone in-between right? Are you sure you don't have an agenda here? Because there's a pretty noticeable pattern in the way you approach people who don't agree with you...you rope them into the "sim" community, and call them a "toxic complainer" just because they have the audacity to provide feedback on a non-perfect game which you've admitted all sports games are lol. Talk about an agenda...

4th: I've never tried to discredit your opinion of the game due to your causal following of hockey. I have openly called you out for generalizing the sim community for showing frustrations based on our ability to see flaws in the AI that you may not (and you do this in every single sub-forum on this site. You can't stand that people don't agree with you and you're quick to suggest that passionate people should give up video games for good, simply because they don't find the game as amazing as you). When you see the sim community discussing these legacy issues, it feels nothing short of a flame or a troll to pop-in and say "why'd you buy it then? If you bought it, you can't complain. They don't care about you and shouldn't so just go away and whine on your own" when you could easily ignore the post and live your life, just as you suggest other's do when they don't find a flawed game 100% flawless like you. I find your tone to be arrogant and dismissive, and I take exception to your combative approach to people you've labeled as "sim" just because we like to give feedback on what would make our experience better, like every single other demographic openly does. Why can't we discuss what we find lacking? Why do you take that as a personal insult?

5th: I don't think a "fully" custom experience has to be a "myth" for much longer. I mean, we already have custom sliders in the game, wouldn't it be great if we could use those online in private matches/lobbies? Seems like that'd solve a ton of issues for every demographic, no? Also, why wouldn't that be the goal of sports games? Sports are inherently subjective which is why every single game that offers sliders has so many different slider offerings. Lastly, why would you want this to be a myth if you didn't have an agenda? "logical" people (thanks for calling me illogical by the way, you're just so down to Earth) would see that the more a game experience can be customized, the more enjoyable the game experience will be for all parties. Seems like you have a grudge against this mythical "sim" community everyone who doesn't agree with you is part of. I just want every demographic to be able to speak their mind, unlike you.

6th: If NHL is a game that I find to be the most fun despite it's flaws, then I will continue to play it. I will also continue to provide feedback. Maybe I'm overly-optimistic, but I love interacting with the developers and other community members, as staying quiet has never gotten anyone anything. Again, I'm not going to let someone bully me out of buying a game I like, or discussing a game I like, or providing feedback for a game I like just because I don't like it as much as you.

7th: I don't need a game completely catered to me. Again, they've made some great animation improvements that I found to be worthy of a release (19 skating/hitting, 20 goalie deflections/shot animations). When I put over 500 hours into the game a year, little features like goalie deflections goes a long way when it comes to getting enjoyment out of a game. Unlike you, I don't find my opinion to be the most valuable opinion on the internet. I don't believe developers or marketing teams care about me personally. I don't have to find a game flawless to be worhty of a purchase, nor will my purchase disqualify me from discussing legacy issues and areas that need improvement.

8th: If you think only "sim" crowds in sports games are toxic, then you have a server bias/grudge towards the "sim" community and you need to take a step back and approach these forums in a more objective way. This paragraph clearly showed your bias and agenda. Thank you for showing the world how quickly you generalize and attack people who don't agree with you.

9th: Being a developer doesn't mean you understand the sport better than people who play, study, or coach it lol. Most developers would probably admit they aren't "experts" but that they love the sport and are up for the challenge of creating a good game. This had to be one of most laughably stupid statements I've ever read, but because I'm a good guy, I'll partially agree with this paragraph. There's no reason devs should cater to non-constructive complainers. Having a constructive discussion doesn't make someone a complainer though, and that's where you get it wrong. You conflate the two because of your heavy bias.

TL;DR: You have an irrational hate for people who disagree with you, and I'm sick of reading your posts filled with generalizations, assumptions, and bias that continuously derail threads. You are a troll.

[seaside24]

I'm just glad we will finally have more than one option in terms of football games.

Always enjoyed the 2k games just as much if not more than Madden.

[JayhawkerStL]

Quote: Originally Posted by HipNotiiC_x

Bolded what I'll reply to. Boy was that an exhausting list of assumptions and generalizations I had to read though, but that was to be expected... 1st: Never hated on EA because it's not 2k, I've hated on EA for their unique product not being up to par. Having stated that I've always bought both, I clearly have found pros and cons in both games for many years. EA was always my online game, but when you have net-code issues over the span of two consecutive years where your online performance was greatly impacted on the competitive scene due to it, then yes, I'm going to give them negative feedback. And again, I'm going to give them negative feedback for deceiving the community about omitting EASHL from a game and not making that information available till mere weeks before release. 2nd: I've bought almost every NHL game imaginable. I've made long posts about how NHL Hitz Pro is arguably the greatest hockey game ever made. I'm not "entitled" to a game of my preference, but since my preference starts and ends at "decent representation of the sport" I tend to always have a game to play. I will continue to provide feedback and stand-up for people who continue to provide constructive feedback, and I will always encourage everyone to list their pros and cons to sports games, as the more feedback the better. I will never be bullied by people like you into not speaking my mind, not asking for improvements, and not engaging with people who also have opinions on what would make the game better. Just because I'm not in-love with NHL like you, doesn't mean I should be slandered, bullied, and shouted-down on a forum designed to discuss sports video games. 3rd: Here's your unverified "fact" you like to bring up about the "sim" community whenever they call you out for trying to bully people into being quiet. I've never claimed to get zero enjoyment out of this game, but I sure do run into a lot of immersion-breaking scenarios that have existed for years. I will continue to provide feedback on those scenarios, and will continue to get enjoyment out of this game as well. These aren't mutually exclusive. I will also continue to discuss with other forums members who notice these lingering issues and discuss how awesome it would be if they were ever fixed. Like anyone who is passionate about something, there will be some harsh criticism when the same problems are never addressed. Providing harsh criticism does not equal hate, nor does it disqualify me from still finding the game worthy of a purchase. I also find it rich that the "sim" community is the only one with an agenda. So, you like the modes built for you in the game, everyone else doesn't get to provide any feedback on the modes built for them? Are offline gamemodes not built for everyone? I mean, they give 4 different presets ranging from "Arcade" to "Full-Sim" so it looks like offline game modes are built for me, you, and everyone in-between right? Are you sure you don't have an agenda here? Because there's a pretty noticeable pattern in the way you approach people who don't agree with you...you rope them into the "sim" community, and call them a "toxic complainer" just because they have the audacity to provide feedback on a non-perfect game which you've admitted all sports games are lol. Talk about an agenda... 4th: I've never tried to discredit your opinion of the game due to your causal following of hockey. I have openly called you out for generalizing the sim community for showing frustrations based on our ability to see flaws in the AI that you may not (and you do this in every single sub-forum on this site. You can't stand that people don't agree with you and you're quick to suggest that passionate people should give up video games for good, simply because they don't find the game as amazing as you). When you see the sim community discussing these legacy issues, it feels nothing short of a flame or a troll to pop-in and say "why'd you buy it then? If you bought it, you can't complain. They don't care about you and shouldn't so just go away and whine on your own" when you could easily ignore the post and live your life, just as you suggest other's do when they don't find a flawed game 100% flawless like you. I find your tone to be arrogant and dismissive, and I take exception to your combative approach to people you've labeled as "sim" just because we like to give feedback on what would make our experience better, like every single other demographic openly does. Why can't we discuss what we find lacking? Why do you take that as a personal insult? 5th: I don't think a "fully" custom experience has to be a "myth" for much longer. I mean, we already have custom sliders in the game, wouldn't it be great if we could use those online in private matches/lobbies? Seems like that'd solve a ton of issues for every demographic, no? Also, why wouldn't that be the goal of sports games? Sports are inherently subjective which is why every single game that offers sliders has so many different slider offerings. Lastly, why would you want this to be a myth if you didn't have an agenda? "logical" people (thanks for calling me illogical by the way, you're just so down to Earth) would see that the more a game experience can be customized, the more enjoyable the game experience will be for all parties. Seems like you have a grudge against this mythical "sim" community everyone who doesn't agree with you is part of. I just want every demographic to be able to speak their mind, unlike you. 6th: If NHL is a game that I find to be the most fun despite it's flaws, then I will continue to play it. I will also continue to provide feedback. Maybe I'm overly-optimistic, but I love interacting with the developers and other community members, as staying quiet has never gotten anyone anything. Again, I'm not going to let someone bully me out of buying a game I like, or discussing a game I like, or providing feedback for a game I like just because I don't like it as much as you. 7th: I don't need a game completely catered to me. Again, they've made some great animation improvements that I found to be worthy of a release (19 skating/hitting, 20 goalie deflections/shot animations). When I put over 500 hours into the game a year, little features like goalie deflections goes a long way when it comes to getting enjoyment out of a game. Unlike you, I don't find my opinion to be the most valuable opinion on the internet. I don't believe developers or marketing teams care about me personally. I don't have to find a game flawless to be worhty of a purchase, nor will my purchase disqualify me from discussing legacy issues and areas that need improvement. 8th: If you think only "sim" crowds in sports games are toxic, then you have a server bias/grudge towards the "sim" community and you need to take a step back and approach these forums in a more objective way. This paragraph clearly showed your bias and agenda. Thank you for showing the world how quickly you generalize and attack people who don't agree with you. 9th: Being a developer doesn't mean you understand the sport better than people who play, study, or coach it lol. Most developers would probably admit they aren't "experts" but that they love the sport and are up for the challenge of creating a good game. This had to be one of most laughably stupid statements I've ever read, but because I'm a good guy, I'll partially agree with this paragraph. There's no reason devs should cater to non-constructive complainers. Having a constructive discussion doesn't make someone a complainer though, and that's where you get it wrong. You conflate the two because of your heavy bias. TL;DR: You have an irrational hate for people who disagree with you, and I'm sick of reading your posts filled with generalizations, assumptions, and bias that continuously derail threads. You are a troll.

I decided to see why you were so interested in NFL 2K, so I looked to see what you had to say about Madden.

Apparently, all you really give a **** about is following me around and telling me how bad I am for being wrong. I am an idiot for taking you serious.

How many different forums do you spend the majority of your time complaining about EA because 2K stopped making hockey games?

I post in forums of games I like, not to complain about a game I don’t.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by HipNotiiC_x

TL;DR: You have an irrational hate for people who disagree with you, and I'm sick of reading your posts filled with generalizations, assumptions, and bias that continuously derail threads. You are a troll.

YEP..........Not sure why he finds the need to bully constructive criticism. You seemed pretty rational in your responses.