After reading my teams spring report, I can't get excited about this gen...

[RobWVU22]

Jesus that was glorious. Great post and ideas. Someone needs to email this to an EA Dev asap... although if it was possible and by some remote chance read... It would be dismissed as too much.

[hay99077]

Haven't posted on OS in years... This post was too good to ignore. Someone needs to alert EA.

[BenGerman]

I feel the same way, and to be honest, NCAA 12 was the first year I really felt like this. My team doesn't feel like a team, because all of the players play the same way. My home stadium doesn't feel like home because I can barely hear the crowd, and even then, it rarely makes a difference in terms of gameplay.

We'll see what they have in store for us this year. At this point, the only direction the series can go for me is up.

[Culture Rot]

Quote: Originally Posted by DorianDonP

As a warning, this is a very long post. I'd say my biggest issue with EA's take on football games this gen has been the reluctance to go beyond what worked on the previous generations of console. I've been a loyal customer for a long time, so watching every iteration, even this past game, play on what worked in 1998 has taken it's toll. It's as if their idea of next Gen football was simply to update the graphics, but continue rely on archaic ideas about how a football game should work. [looks prettier, but have the approaches changed?] There were limitations in technology on the SEGA, and PSone, and Dreamcast, and even PS2. But we are to a point in tech where the creators should stop trying to copy strategies of football games from the past, and instead try to simulate real life football. What do I mean by this exactly? I was reading about spring practice for Florida State a few hours ago, and Jimbo Fisher was talking about how one of our corners would be playing field corner, and another would be playing boundary. Then he talked about one linebacker moving to weakside, and another transitioning to sam. Then he talked about how a few of our athletes would be staying on the outside at receiver, instead of playing slot. After finishing reading the spring report, I realized why I can't get excited about NCAA 2013 or beyond. These concepts don't even exist in that game. I have played football games for 15+ years where there wasn't depth to the positions. I don't want to play that game anymore. I want to play a game where there is a difference between weakside linebacker and strongside linebacker. A difference between the receiver positions. I want to play a game where your SYSTEM matters. Where if you run a 3-4, you need big, athletic linebackers, and huge lineman. More than that, I want each player you recruit in a game to have his rating directly tied to where you are playing him. If I recruit a 6'3 225 DE out of HS, I want his rating as a 4-3 DE to be different than his overall rating as a 3-4 DE (and more importantly, his impact on the field). I want the overall ratings to be different for a left tackle and right tackle. Different for nose tackle and defensive tackle. I want to be able to chose different types of 4-3 systems. I want to be able to chose a zone blocking scheme. And certain lineman to be better fits for certain schemes. And as I wish for those things I remember that size doesn't matter in the game, which makes those concepts like wishing for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's frustrating, because the depth I want out of a football game is never going to come this generation. And if the Devs don't completely change the way they view making football games (such as treating recruiting as a mini-game), then the next gen isn't going to be much different. I've given up on having physics this gen. Which means I have given up on size (such a HUGE part of recruiting and football in general) meaning anything this gen. I realize now that I have given up hope on so much of what I am interested in for a football game in 2012, and that sucks because we have the technology to do these things. Things like what? Physics where size matters, ratings overhaul, a focus on the details of the game like weakside linebackers being different from strongside linebackers, and complete customization. Does anyone believe any of those are coming anytime soon? My idea for ratings How about this. Instead of arbitrary ratings that no one is quite sure what they mean. How about we make tendencies and bare basic ratings the driving force of recruits and players? I think our idea of ratings worked on the old consoles, but it's time to innovate. Instead of using a 0 to 99 point scale, how about we use actual times and measurements? For a speed rating, use a 40 yard dash. For a quickness rating, use a cone drill. For strength, use bench pressing. For jumping, use the vert. Then have measurements for hands, and legs. Use a formula to compile these things into a base rating. The stronger the base rating, the better the perception of the player. 5 star, 4 star, 3 star, etc. These would be the core ratings that all players would have. And the rest of what makes up a player would be done by tendencies. NCAA could call it "player DNA' or something. For example, tendencies for a QB Have a footwork tendency have 5 possible ratings: Poor Solid Above Average Great Elite Qbs with Poor footwork take longer to complete their drop backs. They are a set number (lets say 50% for example) likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble often when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. QB's with mediocre footwork drop back more smoother and quicker than poor, are maybe 35% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble around occasionally when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. Qb's with above average drop back nicely and are maybe 25% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble around occasionally when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. Qb's with great footwork drop back with ease and are only 15% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They hardly ever stumble around when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. QB's with ELITE footwork drop back with ease and are only 10% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They hardly ever stumble around when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. They also have a 15% boost in accuracy and arm strength on 3, 5, and 7 step drops. Most recruits would get on campus with poor or mediocre, and you could decide in an off-season to train them on their footwork. If you train them enough, they get better at other aspects of their game. Or in video game terms, they level up. Have another tendency for the upper body. Call it pocket technique. The better the technique, the more accurate or stronger the pass. The more likely the QB can pump fake a defender and sell a play action pass or complete a deep pass. Arm strength shouldn't just be a number rating. It should also be tied to tendencies or 'player DNA'. Have footwork tendency (40%)+pocket technique (40%)+bench press measurement (10%)+hand size measurement (10%)=how hard a pass is thrown and the different types of passes a QB can consistently make (deep outs). This would mean a player could improve on arm strength in various ways. Lets say Tim Tebow was being rated. Footwork-above average Pocket Technique-poor Bench Press-Above Average Hand size-mediocre Means he won't have a lot of oomph on his throws. A spiral tendency could control how often he throws a wobbly pass. Then have more tendencies to create how accurate he is. Tendency to over throw Tendency to under throw Tendency throwing to his right Tendency throwing to his left Tendency throwing over the middle Tendency when under pressure Tendency to check-down Tendency to throw into coverage Tendency to lock onto first option Tendency to throw to backs Tendency to scramble You can get really detailed (those are just a few ideas), but still be precise in creating the QB, unlike the random number ratings. Then have 3 more things to complete it. 1. Throwing Style Have 10-15 throwing animations that you can pick from with various alternative animations based on what is happening on the play. (and have them not be the cosmetic but no substance styles of madden) Have each of the animations feel differently just like the 'shooting/free throw animation' on NBA 2k12. This allows for each QB you recruit to feel different. One throwing style might be elongated and could lead to more sacks because it takes so long to complete. Another style might be very quick, but takes a hit in throwing power. It also might mean you prefer the way the lower rated QB throws the ball over the higher rated QB. 2. System fit When recruiting, the game should generate a suggestion of fits for the player with all of those tendencies. Maybe you can unlock it after scouting. Best Fit: Spread Best Fit: Option Best Fit: Balanced etc. This would allow for teams like Georgia Tech to (when the computer is recruiting) to only recruit players with that fit. This would allow the user to decide if highly rated player is worth recruiting for your particular system. A player in the right system should progress more rapidly than a player not in the right fit (think John Brantley.) (If you took a job at Michigan and you ran a pro-style offense, you would have to decide if it would be worth it to keep Robinson as your QB or move him to another position) 3. Playbook Knowledge Another tendency related to the playbook. Poor-If a QB has this tendency, then 50% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart when the user tries to pick a play. Lack of audibles. Mediocore-25% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart when the user tries to pick a play. Lack of audibles. Above Average-10% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart. Few more audible choices. Great-All of the playbook is assessable every game. More audible choices. Elite-All of the playbook accessible every game. Full choice of audibles. Have it the same for other players. Your RB missing the wrong hole. OL missing his assignment. WR running the wrong route. CB blowing his coverage. LB out of his lane. Freshman should all enter the game with poor to mediocre (maybe a few with higher sprinkled in recruiting), which would discourage many from playing true freshman over seniors. If a player transfers, then his tendency drops because he is in another system. And when you add coaching ratings/tendencies (which should be in the game) then you could have one prospect with 120 different ratings, depending on what team he played for. It sounds complicated I think, but it would make every player different, and you would really have to play with all of your players to decide who you want to start. With this tendency shift in the ratings, I could create a prospect that plays similar to Greg Reid. A highly entertaining athlete with poor tackling ability and lazy technique despite the fact that he thinks and plays as if he is 240 pounds. He would always go for the interception, and always go for the big hit, and always go for the fumble strip, and because of this he would be a playmaker, but he would also give up a lot of plays because his size and playing style makes him a target. I can't create Greg Reid using the numeric rating system of today. I could create the on-field personality of my entire Seminole roster with something as detailed as tendencies. Have each position on the field have it's own set of tendencies. RB Fight For Extra Yards Tendency Bounce to the outside Tendency Use stiff arm Tendency Use spin move Tendency Use hurdle Tendency Use joke Tendency One cut to the hole Tendency Then have 10-15 different running styles, some of them which help in breaking tackles and others that help with gaining full speed or juking. Have each have a pro and con. Using this, I could have two RBs the exact same size and speed, but still have them be two completely different backs. (similar listed sizes in college, and similar times at the combine but very diff playing styles) Offensive Tackle Play to Whistle Tendency Technique Tendency Fall for stunt Tendency Pick up blitz Tendency etc. Cornerback Look for ball in air Tendency Use hands Tendency Go for interception Tendency Go for big hit Tendency Instead of a 'tackle' rating for a defensive player, it should be based on player size as well as the angle of the player, and their technique tendency. The better those 3 things, the surer of a tackler they are. The point is, going forward, I think tendencies should be the driving force of how players perform, and not number ratings. Madden kind of sorta began the process last year, and NBA 2k is already great at doing it, but its this that I am looking for in the next gen of football games. I just dont know how excited I can get about football games in the future if they will be using IMO outdated strategies. I won't even go deep into the disappointing gameplay, unrealistic and jerky player animations, atrocious commentary, underwhelming use of ESPN presentation, lack of fully editable and shareable recruiting classes, limits in dynasty options (neutral site games, coach ratings, tournaments), and glitches/bugs. It's time for the band aids to stop. EA needs to look into completely overhauling the way they go about making football games. I can't see them doing that until next gen.

Not to be sarcastic but good luck waiting for this, were just trying to get a game that has some semblence of realism right now, and instead were getting a 3 month long tournament for what players picture will be on the cover of the game.

[Palo20]

Here's my argument against "8 year old Timmy." Like it or not, Madden/NCAA teaches football to kids. This last generation of fans (maybe 15-30 years old) grew up playing Madden football and their overall knowledge of the game is better because of it.

I feel it's Madden/NCAA's responsibility to get things right. All of the stuff mentioned in the first post, get them right and teach the next generation about football. As much as the casual fan has picked up on "cover 2" and "flanker drive" because of Madden/NCAA, here's a few things that are misconceptions because Madden/NCAA has had them wrong throughout the years:

--3rd WRs line up in the slot. Fans very often assume that the 3rd best WR on the team is the slot guy. That's obviously not the case. Madden is getting better with this as they've started to include team specific formations.

--In the NFL you could always defer the kick (this is new within the last few years)

--4-3 teams have a ROLB and LOLB on their depth chart (covered above)

--3rd CBs line up in the slot. (Teams often move one of the starters or a safety to the slot)

--For years, Madden had the clock stop ANY time a player ran out of bounds. This is not the case in real football, though many think it is because of the video game.

--"5 Wide" always means 5 WR. Putting 5 WRs on the field is EXTREMELY rare in the NFL and NCAA. There is almost always a TE and/or RB when teams go "5 Wide."

--Zone coverage is dropping to a zone and simply staying there. (no match up principles)

Just a couple of examples there.

So as fans become smarter, I think Madden/NCAA has to do their part to educate properly.

Do it for the kids!!

[weagle]

I agree with this. It's so frustrating playing with the team you know inside and out, but all the players stay the same. This year for example, Dyer and McCaleb ran exactly the same, but anyone that watched an Auburn game this year knew Dyer was the between the tackles, every down back, and McCaleb is the speed guy, catch it out of the backfield, run from the shotgun guy. In the game, they even gave Dyer a higher speed rating to make him a higher overall, so Auburn didn't play like I wanted them too. It made me drop the game really quick.

[Custon 89]

I wish EA would implement such things as true football positions, system tied rating (NFL Head Coach 09 did this, one reason why I loved that game).

And for simple, not hardcore/realistic football gamers, how about an option to switch for the simple/advance options( ex. playcall screen with ask coach, formation, and play style.)

An example for Depth Chart at WR
-Simple / -Advance
1.Starter WR on the right / FL
2.Starter WR on the left / SE
3.Slot / Slot
etc.

But knowing EA, programming, and the amount of storage on the disc can destroy this from becoming a reality.

[COACH WEBB]

Quote: Originally Posted by DorianDonP

As a warning, this is a very long post. I'd say my biggest issue with EA's take on football games this gen has been the reluctance to go beyond what worked on the previous generations of console. I've been a loyal customer for a long time, so watching every iteration, even this past game, play on what worked in 1998 has taken it's toll. It's as if their idea of next Gen football was simply to update the graphics, but continue rely on archaic ideas about how a football game should work. [looks prettier, but have the approaches changed?] There were limitations in technology on the SEGA, and PSone, and Dreamcast, and even PS2. But we are to a point in tech where the creators should stop trying to copy strategies of football games from the past, and instead try to simulate real life football. What do I mean by this exactly? I was reading about spring practice for Florida State a few hours ago, and Jimbo Fisher was talking about how one of our corners would be playing field corner, and another would be playing boundary. Then he talked about one linebacker moving to weakside, and another transitioning to sam. Then he talked about how a few of our athletes would be staying on the outside at receiver, instead of playing slot. After finishing reading the spring report, I realized why I can't get excited about NCAA 2013 or beyond. These concepts don't even exist in that game. I have played football games for 15+ years where there wasn't depth to the positions. I don't want to play that game anymore. I want to play a game where there is a difference between weakside linebacker and strongside linebacker. A difference between the receiver positions. I want to play a game where your SYSTEM matters. Where if you run a 3-4, you need big, athletic linebackers, and huge lineman. More than that, I want each player you recruit in a game to have his rating directly tied to where you are playing him. If I recruit a 6'3 225 DE out of HS, I want his rating as a 4-3 DE to be different than his overall rating as a 3-4 DE (and more importantly, his impact on the field). I want the overall ratings to be different for a left tackle and right tackle. Different for nose tackle and defensive tackle. I want to be able to chose different types of 4-3 systems. I want to be able to chose a zone blocking scheme. And certain lineman to be better fits for certain schemes. And as I wish for those things I remember that size doesn't matter in the game, which makes those concepts like wishing for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's frustrating, because the depth I want out of a football game is never going to come this generation. And if the Devs don't completely change the way they view making football games (such as treating recruiting as a mini-game), then the next gen isn't going to be much different. I've given up on having physics this gen. Which means I have given up on size (such a HUGE part of recruiting and football in general) meaning anything this gen. I realize now that I have given up hope on so much of what I am interested in for a football game in 2012, and that sucks because we have the technology to do these things. Things like what? Physics where size matters, ratings overhaul, a focus on the details of the game like weakside linebackers being different from strongside linebackers, and complete customization. Does anyone believe any of those are coming anytime soon? My idea for ratings How about this. Instead of arbitrary ratings that no one is quite sure what they mean. How about we make tendencies and bare basic ratings the driving force of recruits and players? I think our idea of ratings worked on the old consoles, but it's time to innovate. Instead of using a 0 to 99 point scale, how about we use actual times and measurements? For a speed rating, use a 40 yard dash. For a quickness rating, use a cone drill. For strength, use bench pressing. For jumping, use the vert. Then have measurements for hands, and legs. Use a formula to compile these things into a base rating. The stronger the base rating, the better the perception of the player. 5 star, 4 star, 3 star, etc. These would be the core ratings that all players would have. And the rest of what makes up a player would be done by tendencies. NCAA could call it "player DNA' or something. For example, tendencies for a QB Have a footwork tendency have 5 possible ratings: Poor Solid Above Average Great Elite Qbs with Poor footwork take longer to complete their drop backs. They are a set number (lets say 50% for example) likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble often when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. QB's with mediocre footwork drop back more smoother and quicker than poor, are maybe 35% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble around occasionally when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. Qb's with above average drop back nicely and are maybe 25% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They stumble around occasionally when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. Qb's with great footwork drop back with ease and are only 15% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They hardly ever stumble around when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. QB's with ELITE footwork drop back with ease and are only 10% likely to be inaccurate when under pressure. They hardly ever stumble around when maneuvering the pocket or scrambling. They also have a 15% boost in accuracy and arm strength on 3, 5, and 7 step drops. Most recruits would get on campus with poor or mediocre, and you could decide in an off-season to train them on their footwork. If you train them enough, they get better at other aspects of their game. Or in video game terms, they level up. Have another tendency for the upper body. Call it pocket technique. The better the technique, the more accurate or stronger the pass. The more likely the QB can pump fake a defender and sell a play action pass or complete a deep pass. Arm strength shouldn't just be a number rating. It should also be tied to tendencies or 'player DNA'. Have footwork tendency (40%)+pocket technique (40%)+bench press measurement (10%)+hand size measurement (10%)=how hard a pass is thrown and the different types of passes a QB can consistently make (deep outs). This would mean a player could improve on arm strength in various ways. Lets say Tim Tebow was being rated. Footwork-above average Pocket Technique-poor Bench Press-Above Average Hand size-mediocre Means he won't have a lot of oomph on his throws. A spiral tendency could control how often he throws a wobbly pass. Then have more tendencies to create how accurate he is. Tendency to over throw Tendency to under throw Tendency throwing to his right Tendency throwing to his left Tendency throwing over the middle Tendency when under pressure Tendency to check-down Tendency to throw into coverage Tendency to lock onto first option Tendency to throw to backs Tendency to scramble You can get really detailed (those are just a few ideas), but still be precise in creating the QB, unlike the random number ratings. Then have 3 more things to complete it. 1. Throwing Style Have 10-15 throwing animations that you can pick from with various alternative animations based on what is happening on the play. (and have them not be the cosmetic but no substance styles of madden) Have each of the animations feel differently just like the 'shooting/free throw animation' on NBA 2k12. This allows for each QB you recruit to feel different. One throwing style might be elongated and could lead to more sacks because it takes so long to complete. Another style might be very quick, but takes a hit in throwing power. It also might mean you prefer the way the lower rated QB throws the ball over the higher rated QB. 2. System fit When recruiting, the game should generate a suggestion of fits for the player with all of those tendencies. Maybe you can unlock it after scouting. Best Fit: Spread Best Fit: Option Best Fit: Balanced etc. This would allow for teams like Georgia Tech to (when the computer is recruiting) to only recruit players with that fit. This would allow the user to decide if highly rated player is worth recruiting for your particular system. A player in the right system should progress more rapidly than a player not in the right fit (think John Brantley.) (If you took a job at Michigan and you ran a pro-style offense, you would have to decide if it would be worth it to keep Robinson as your QB or move him to another position) 3. Playbook Knowledge Another tendency related to the playbook. Poor-If a QB has this tendency, then 50% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart when the user tries to pick a play. Lack of audibles. Mediocore-25% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart when the user tries to pick a play. Lack of audibles. Above Average-10% of the playbook will have squiggly lines instead of playart. Few more audible choices. Great-All of the playbook is assessable every game. More audible choices. Elite-All of the playbook accessible every game. Full choice of audibles. Have it the same for other players. Your RB missing the wrong hole. OL missing his assignment. WR running the wrong route. CB blowing his coverage. LB out of his lane. Freshman should all enter the game with poor to mediocre (maybe a few with higher sprinkled in recruiting), which would discourage many from playing true freshman over seniors. If a player transfers, then his tendency drops because he is in another system. And when you add coaching ratings/tendencies (which should be in the game) then you could have one prospect with 120 different ratings, depending on what team he played for. It sounds complicated I think, but it would make every player different, and you would really have to play with all of your players to decide who you want to start. With this tendency shift in the ratings, I could create a prospect that plays similar to Greg Reid. A highly entertaining athlete with poor tackling ability and lazy technique despite the fact that he thinks and plays as if he is 240 pounds. He would always go for the interception, and always go for the big hit, and always go for the fumble strip, and because of this he would be a playmaker, but he would also give up a lot of plays because his size and playing style makes him a target. I can't create Greg Reid using the numeric rating system of today. I could create the on-field personality of my entire Seminole roster with something as detailed as tendencies. Have each position on the field have it's own set of tendencies. RB Fight For Extra Yards Tendency Bounce to the outside Tendency Use stiff arm Tendency Use spin move Tendency Use hurdle Tendency Use joke Tendency One cut to the hole Tendency Then have 10-15 different running styles, some of them which help in breaking tackles and others that help with gaining full speed or juking. Have each have a pro and con. Using this, I could have two RBs the exact same size and speed, but still have them be two completely different backs. (similar listed sizes in college, and similar times at the combine but very diff playing styles) Offensive Tackle Play to Whistle Tendency Technique Tendency Fall for stunt Tendency Pick up blitz Tendency etc. Cornerback Look for ball in air Tendency Use hands Tendency Go for interception Tendency Go for big hit Tendency Instead of a 'tackle' rating for a defensive player, it should be based on player size as well as the angle of the player, and their technique tendency. The better those 3 things, the surer of a tackler they are. The point is, going forward, I think tendencies should be the driving force of how players perform, and not number ratings. Madden kind of sorta began the process last year, and NBA 2k is already great at doing it, but its this that I am looking for in the next gen of football games. I just dont know how excited I can get about football games in the future if they will be using IMO outdated strategies. I won't even go deep into the disappointing gameplay, unrealistic and jerky player animations, atrocious commentary, underwhelming use of ESPN presentation, lack of fully editable and shareable recruiting classes, limits in dynasty options (neutral site games, coach ratings, tournaments), and glitches/bugs. It's time for the band aids to stop. EA needs to look into completely overhauling the way they go about making football games. I can't see them doing that until next gen.

Great post.....GO NOLES!