POTUS 2024 - Biden vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[thesloppy]

My (bare) understanding was that Russia wanted and provably tried to collude with Trump's team and Trump's team wanted and provably tried to collude with Russia, yet neither side was competent enough to actually get those corrupt streams to cross.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The exact same. I'm sure thr Biden administration will have an equal number of people indicted for crimes.

I'm sure they won't but that's also beside the point. I agree with the logic in your initial post; you can't reasonable claim someone is a genius and also that they're an idiot/incompetent at the same time.

Any someone. Whether they are someone we support or they are someone we don't.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Passcaglia

I just don't know how you deal with something like this:

Majority of Americans wrongly believe US is in recession – and most blame Biden | US economy | The Guardian

Thanks for the link. Honestly I think long-term the answer is give up on electing our own leaders. The population of this country isn't capable of doing it sensibly. It's not new of course - there was across the board dead-wrongness during COVID, and it's been a long-term issue in general, but I think it's getting worse.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I just don't know how you deal with something like this:

Majority of Americans wrongly believe US is in recession – and most blame Biden | US economy | The Guardian

Kind of the problem you run into when you have an old President who can't reliably speak to the public. Others get to set the narrative for you.

And I think people will view the economy from their own personal lens. Why would your average American care about the S&P being up if that's mostly benefiting a select few wealthy people? If you can't afford rent or a mortgage and are severely in debt, you're not going to view the economy favorably. Especially when prices have been going up and wages aren't keeping up.

Also the focus of the Biden administration hasn't been the economy. They're laser focused on Israel and Ukraine. Great if you work for a defense contractor, not so great for everyone else.

[RainMaker]

lol Biden

JUST IN: Nikki Haley says she will vote for Trump

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) May 22, 2024

[albionmoonlight]

I'm quite sure that the Biden campaign did not expect the lifelong GOP member and VP hopeful (delusional of her, but still) to randomly decide to vote for the Dem.

Yeah, the delusional anti-Trumpers on social media expected it, but that's sound and fury signifying nothing.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'm quite sure that the Biden campaign did not expect the lifelong GOP member and VP hopeful (delusional of her, but still) to randomly decide to vote for the Dem.

Yeah, the delusional anti-Trumpers on social media expected it, but that's sound and fury signifying nothing.

He's spent the past 6 months catering his campaign to Haley voters at the expense of his own base. Just another bad decision.

Biden campaign makes new digital ad buy in Pennsylvania to court Nikki Haley supporters | CNN Politics

[albionmoonlight]

Oh, I totally think he should be trying to get moderates and conservatives who are scared of Trump (i.e. Haley voters). He needs to do something to make up for the attacking-Biden-from-the-left folks. I just don’t think he or anyone who is paying attention ever expected Haley herselfto publicly say she was going to vote for him.

[RainMaker]

I would not have staked my campaign on Haley voters and instead made the people who voted for me in 2020 happy. We'll see if the 2016 Hillary strategy works though.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Kind of the problem you run into when you have an old President who can't reliably speak to the public. Others get to set the narrative for you.

And I think people will view the economy from their own personal lens. Why would your average American care about the S&P being up if that's mostly benefiting a select few wealthy people? If you can't afford rent or a mortgage and are severely in debt, you're not going to view the economy favorably. Especially when prices have been going up and wages aren't keeping up.

Also the focus of the Biden administration hasn't been the economy. They're laser focused on Israel and Ukraine. Great if you work for a defense contractor, not so great for everyone else.

It's impossible to prove a negative, but I think you are way overestimating the intelligence and willingness of the general populace to understand or want to understand the reality of a complex ecosystem like the economy, particularly to believe that someone who spoke more clearly and was not considered too old could sway people to believing the economy is actually pretty good and they are not at fault for the off-base perceptions of Americans simply because they are in the WH.

You act like we haven't had a not insignificant portion of the populace lapping up lie after lie about demonstrably provable facts from one of the party leaders for damn near a decade now. Why would anyone choose to believe anything differently, even from a clear-headed, younger, well-spoken individual?

We believe what we want to believe and what we experience. Yeah, gas was under $2 when we couldn't drive anywhere, good cost less, interest rates were down, etc. Who fueled the spending spree before COVID, when it was unnecessary to cut taxes (increasing the deficit)? People don't want to know, refuse facts, or ignore the recent past because of the here and now.

Why is there any reason to believe any of this would be different with someone other than Biden in office?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

We believe what we want to believe and what we experience. Yeah, gas was under $2 when we couldn't drive anywhere, good cost less, interest rates were down, etc.

I think people who keep pointing to the Covid years and comparing things are missing the point of why people feel this way. They aren't comparing how bad THEIR economy is to the Covid year. They are comparing it to the ten years before Covid. And I emphasize "their" because they really don't care how well things like the stock market or business profit reports are doing. They are paying by a percentage of their take home pay more for basic living expenses (food, housing, transportation) than they have ever had to before. And history tells us that when people feel like the economy is bad, they blame the current leaders for it. It is no surprise to me people feel like we are in a recession, because they judge that by their bank accounts not by the Dow Jones average.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We'll see if the 2016 Hillary strategy works though.

Speaking of Hillary's 2016 strategy (or lack thereof), I wonder if Biden will visit Wisconsin at least once during the fall campaign?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is no surprise to me people feel like we are in a recession, because they judge that by their bank accounts not by the Dow Jones average.

The problem is a lot of these same people used the DOW as an example as to why the Trump economy was doing so well when he was in office.

Can't have it both ways.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think people who keep pointing to the Covid years and comparing things are missing the point of why people feel this way. They aren't comparing how bad THEIR economy is to the Covid year. They are comparing it to the ten years before Covid. And I emphasize "their" because they really don't care how well things like the stock market or business profit reports are doing. They are paying by a percentage of their take home pay more for basic living expenses (food, housing, transportation) than they have ever had to before. And history tells us that when people feel like the economy is bad, they blame the current leaders for it. It is no surprise to me people feel like we are in a recession, because they judge that by their bank accounts not by the Dow Jones average.

But other polling says that's not what's happening for most people. 2/3 to 3/4 of people in polls say their personal economic situation is good but then 50-60% also say the country's economic situation is bad.

It's very similar to immigration polling where the most fervently anti-immigrant folks are the ones living in communities with the fewest immigrants. A lot of people are certain that everyone else's life is in the shitter.

[GrantDawg]

Since 2019, housing has increased by 54%. (141% over the last ten years, btw). Food cost rose by 25%. Transportation cost up 27%. Low wage workers' income has grown by 12% over the same time period.
Gee, I wonder why they believe there is a recession?

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But other polling says that's not what's happening for most people. 2/3 to 3/4 of people in polls say their personal economic situation is good but then 50-60% also say the country's economic situation is bad.

I see this dynamic I my friend group. Everybody gripes about how the world is collectively miserable, but all of those individuals are doing the best they've ever done.


...having said that, I think we/they also feel that our financial security is far less stable than it's ever been
Although everyone I know is relatively secure at this exact moment there is the distinct feeling that several flavors of minor disasters could wipe out that security on an instant

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Since 2019, housing has increased by 54%. (141% over the last ten years, btw). Food cost rose by 25%. Transportation cost up 27%. Low wage workers' income has grown by 12% over the same time period.
Gee, I wonder why they believe there is a recession?

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

But again, a lot of people are saying their personal economic circumstances are good.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But other polling says that's not what's happening for most people. 2/3 to 3/4 of people in polls say their personal economic situation is good but then 50-60% also say the country's economic situation is bad.

You can be in a good financial position and still upset that you're paying 25% more for food than you were a few years ago.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's impossible to prove a negative, but I think you are way overestimating the intelligence and willingness of the general populace to understand or want to understand the reality of a complex ecosystem like the economy, particularly to believe that someone who spoke more clearly and was not considered too old could sway people to believing the economy is actually pretty good and they are not at fault for the off-base perceptions of Americans simply because they are in the WH.

You act like we haven't had a not insignificant portion of the populace lapping up lie after lie about demonstrably provable facts from one of the party leaders for damn near a decade now. Why would anyone choose to believe anything differently, even from a clear-headed, younger, well-spoken individual?

We believe what we want to believe and what we experience. Yeah, gas was under $2 when we couldn't drive anywhere, good cost less, interest rates were down, etc. Who fueled the spending spree before COVID, when it was unnecessary to cut taxes (increasing the deficit)? People don't want to know, refuse facts, or ignore the recent past because of the here and now.

Why is there any reason to believe any of this would be different with someone other than Biden in office?

The average person doesn't give a shit about some cherry-picked numbers that economists are telling them. They care about their own personal experiences. They notice their grocery bill is $30 more each week. They see that houses are unaffordable and their rent going up. The car they need to buy now has an 8% interest rate attached to it. They're paying a chunk of their paycheck to student loans which barely puts a dent into the principal. Many are one health problem or bad storm away from being destitute. And their wages are not keeping pace.

That's all that matters. Sure people are getting by and doing well. But those underlying problems are getting worse. The focus is on more endless wars halfway across the world. There is no solution being offered. Instead, they're told they're stupid for not appreciating the economy more and whatever moronic spin is put on another failed supply-side policy.

It's a tone deaf response from a tone deaf administration. Trump won't offer any better solutions, but he'll feign interest in doing so. To some, that's better than the guy who not only doesn't give a shit, but is blaming you for not appreciating him more.